New to grading, looking for monitor recommendations

Discussion in 'Monitors & Projectors' started by Ben Edwards, Jun 17, 2012.

  1. Ben Edwards

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    Hi, I am a MA student who is starting to learn grading. I am looking for a monitor to get me started, as I am a student HP Dreamcast are way out of my price bracket. I have been looking at the Dell Ultrasharp U2410 IPS monitor which goes for around £350 (for some reason the are around $550). I have heard this should get me 90% of the way there. If I start grading for broadcast I will hopefully be paid enough to upgrade.

    Ben
  2. andres de la cruz Moderator

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    Dell monitors are ok to start, even HP have monitors not dreamcolor or dreamcast are ok too.
    Are you check the Nec monitors? Not bad for started either.
  3. Ben Edwards

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    23
    Looking for best monitor for around £350/$550. The U2410 gets very good reviews, I would not imagine all the Dell monitors are OK to start, they do some real budget models. I was hoping for specific recommendations from those in the know.

    Regards,
    Ben
  4. andres de la cruz Moderator

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    http://www.nec-display.com/ap/en_display/p221w/index.html

    I worked with that once and for the price he have is good (400 dolars)

    But the problem is only have DVI and its not Full HD.

    In the multisync gama lf nec you hace interesting choices for a good price, the one you said i never use it so i can help you with that.
  5. Jack Jones Colourist Moderator

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    This is one of the most commonly asked questions regarding color grading - "What's the minimum I can get away with?"

    The truthful answer is that color grading is all about color accuracy and working with known values. A key part of this is optimisation, profiling and calibration/emulation for monitoring. This is where Steve Shaw might be useful to contribute.

    Accuracy is important for many reasons, the simplest being that everyone is working to the same standard and you know for certain that what you are doing is right. Further down the line you need to have these known quantities so that you can transform between colorspaces such as Rec 709 and XYZ.

    Correct monitoring also has a need for Video I/O - Such as a Blackmagic, Matrox, AJA etc. I/O card. These boxes are designed to correctly monitor video signal.

    Despite all of this, one of the best ways of learning is actively using and learning the theory, tools, color pipelines and workflows. If you're still at learning stages I wouldn't worry yourself about equipment so much. If the job is low budget try asking the client, University etc. if they could cover the cost of monitor hire.

    In the meanwhile get learning hard! Learn to use more than one piece of software - Color, DaVinci Lite and Baselight Editions Trial are good places to start - and check out some of Warren Eagles or the Tao of Color training options (don't forget to subscribe to the newsletter!). The ICA are also a great option for training and the Colorist Introduction classes or the Colorist Strategies courses are great learning experiences. Alexis Van Hurkman's Color Correction Handbook is essential reading. I also would recommend a Color Management course either through THX or the ICA as additional bonus learning.
  6. Ben Edwards

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    Thanks for the time everyone has spent answering my question and all the great advise

    I have the Handbook. In terms of the question I would not dream of asking what is the least I can get away with, these type of questions normally massively irritate people in professional forums, and for good reasons;).

    I have a little money to spend on a monitor so my question is what is the best I can get for £350/$550 rather than the least I can get away with.

    Ben
  7. Juan Salvo

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    Unfortunately 350/550 doesn't get you very far in this line of work. Save your money and use whatever you've got to play with. Learn to use the software. Find material you can try different things with. Then get an intership at a facility with real equipment (or if you can an entry level job) then charm your way onto the gear at off hours. Bring your test clips and see how they really look.

    To be frank for ~$550 you're not going to get anything that gets you close to accurate, so don't bother. You could spend that much on just a calibration! Without a probe a dell, HP, Sony, nec computer screen doesn't mean anything if you can't calibrate it. And it means even less if you're not feeding it through hd-sdi. IMO the HP DreamColor is the cheapest new thing I would call "entry level" and it's quite a bit out of your budget. You might be able to find something like a used Panasonic plasma for around 1k, but you'd still need to calibrate it. So even used option I would say are out of your budget. Color accurate displays are going to be expensive.

    Take Jack Jones's advice, learn the software, learn the science. Save your money. And take my advice, get an intership/job, grovel and beg your way onto the equipment and bring footage you're familiar with to see how far off you are! And then budget the cost of renting a proper display into any jobs you might get. Good luck.
  8. Jason Myres Moderator

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    Hi Ben, Just to relent a little and answer your question, here are some good monitors you can afford on your budget:

    HP ZR2440w
    HP ZR24w
    Dell U2410
    NEC EA241WM

    Any of these displays would make a great first investment to get you started. For grading, these are excellent GUI monitors, but like others have mentioned, real color accuracy comes at a premium and is achieved with the addition of a dedicated Grade 1 ($5000+) reference monitor connected to an SDI video I/O card, like an AJA Kona 3G ($2000) or Blackmagic Decklink Extreme 3D+ ($1000).

    But, you are just starting out, so even if you had the money, those are unnecessary investments for you at this point anyway. Start out with a good GUI monitor, and it will carry you through as you build your suite. Without a reference monitor, your results may vary out in the world, but that's often still a problem even when you have the right gear. What counts right now is time in the saddle, and as a colorist you will find limitless amounts of pro bono work you can do for people. So use this time to grade everything you can, learn your software, and follow good practices for workflow and controlling your grading environment outlined in Alexis' book.

    Once you have more money, your next investments should be in...

    1) Hardware requirements for your grading software (RAM, GPU)
    2) HDMI Video I/O (i.e.,Intensity Pro) with a calibrated Panasonic Plasma (ST, GT, or VT series)

    These would be good hardware goals to reach during your first year or so. While not totally up to spec from a pro perspective, a basic grading suite will allow you to learn a lot, while making a nice dent in the free/student/micro-budget grading market in your area.
  9. Ben Edwards

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    Jason, thanks for that. Taking others advise I don't want to blow all my money on a expensive GUI monitor but do need to get a new one (currently I am using a Ikegami which takes up a lot of space and uses lots of power). I have however seen a potentially cheap used U2410 (with a dead pixel) so was thinking of going for that. One thing I notice is the guaunt on the U2410 is much better than a lot of the cheaper monitors, 102% of NTSC where the others are around 75%. Is there a reason you did not mention The U2410? If I understand guaunt correctly this is very relevant but correct me if I am wrong. I was reading a review and while the guaunt is not as high on the cheaper monitors the OOTB color accurate seems better (I am talking Dell Ultrasharp as they seems to be good value for money at the level I am at). In terms of calibration the only thing I have any experience of is ColourVisions Spider but I guss I will be laughed off this forum for even mentioning it.

    I actually have a Intensity Pro (which is how I connect the Ikegami), it is good to here that is a better option than a standard graphics card, if I understand you correctly.

    Ben
  10. Jason Myres Moderator

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    You're right, the U2410 is the one you want. I thought the 2412 was a newer version, but it looks like its actually a less expensive, LED-backlit, 6-bit version of the 2410, with a cheaper case. I've updated the post.

    The Intensity Pro and a graphics card are not interchangeable. You need both. Connect your graphics card to your GUI monitor (Ikegami, Dell, HP, etc), and the Intensity Pro to your grading monitor when the day comes that you have one. A Panasonic Plasma with calibration can work as an affordable alternative to a true reference monitor, and works well with the Intensity Pro over HDMI.

    Calibrating your computer display on your own is reasonable, so take a look at the X-Rite i1 Display Pro: http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=1454

    If you get a plasma however, you really need to have it calibrated by a professional. One day if you have your own shop, and the budget to afford it, you can drop several thousand on calibration and color management equipment, but for now just have a professional do it.
    David McLaren likes this.
  11. Jack Jones Colourist Moderator

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    Worth noting that many people don't own their own systems and freelance from facility to facility (like me!)

    Learning the tools and the trade and then getting yourself out there is also a very strong business model.
  12. jamie dickinson

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    Whatever you end up using, try your best to turn off all the features that mess with the signal (dynamic contrast, magic motion, whatever) and try to line it up as best you can with test signals like PLUGE and/or SMPTE bars. At least you'll have some hope of getting consistent black levels. Good luck.
  13. andres de la cruz Moderator

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    I recomend you the Handbook of Color Correction book, its a fantastic book who explains everything about how start working in cc including calibration.
  14. Ben Edwards

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    23
    Thanks for that, I had just started thinking about getting a Spider or i1 but read they were a waste of time for calibrating for video colourgrading. I actually came back to this forum to ask how I can make the best of what I have (i.e. calibrate a GUI Monitor). I realize the cheaper calibrators do not do luminance so was looking at a i1 Display 2 or Display Pro (think the Pro is a replacement to the 2). Any other recommendation would be good (will probably look at used on eBay).

    Or am I better calibration in some other way?
  15. Ben Edwards

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    Thanks, is it possible to buy a reference card for this, goggled for 'SMPTE reference card' or is there some other trick to doing it by eye.
  16. Jack Jones Colourist Moderator

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    THX Calibration Disc - I think it might come with the Star Wars Blu-rays... Or you can buy it... Or you get it free with one of their color science courses!
  17. Ben Edwards

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    I types 'THX Calibration Disc' into Google with only limited luck. Is there a in joke I am missing.
  18. Jason Myres Moderator

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    Just like the Intensity Pro Vs a graphics card, your GUI and Grading monitors have very different requirements. Your GUI monitor is really only responsible for letting you drive your software. You generally don't make color decisions based on your GUI display. However, if you'd like to calibrate it to neutralize the image, or help match it to your grading display so differences in the two images are less noticeable (i.e., distracting), you can. For the money, any calibration system based around the i1 Display Pro 3 will be hard to beat.

    If you do decide to buy a system to calibrate your GUI display, remember that the calibration probes are licensed only for the software you purchase them with. So, if you buy the standard, off the shelf, i1 DP3, it will only work with the supplied X-Rite calibration utility. If you decide you want to upgrade to a 3rd party calibration system, you must buy the i1 DP3 from them, as it will need to be licensed for their software. You cannot use an off-the-shelf probe (from say B&H, or eBay) with a 3rd party software calibration solution.

    As for your grading monitor, whether it's a true reference monitor, or even just a plasma, basic calibration tools are really not effective enough to rely on for professional work. Many of the affordable solutions state that they will calibrate both plasmas and LCD/LED displays, and they could possibly improve the image. But, if you don't really know what you are doing, you could also make the image much worse. The real challenge with display calibration is knowing when you're right. And generally speaking, that only comes with a very good calibration probe, highly specialized software, and a whole lot of experience in order to navigate all of the intangibles. Spending $300 or so, to have a professional equipped with all of the above, is a much better use of your time and money at this point than chasing it down on your own.

    When people discuss a "plasma for grading," they are really only talking about certain models of Panasonic Plasmas. It started with the older Panasonic Pro PF series models, but then really took off with the introduction of the VT25, and later the VT30. To save money, people have also used the GT/ST series plasmas, but they have less control over color adjustments which makes them more difficult to accurately calibrate. The VT series has 11-point grey scale adjustment, whereas the GT & ST only have 2-points (white & black level). Most of these models, except for the pro units, have a have a "THX mode". Aside from some optimal basic settings, this turns off all of the image enhancement features so you can, as it says in the manual "view a program as the original creators intended it."
  19. Jason Myres Moderator

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    I think this is what Jack's talking about. http://www.amazon.com/Disney-WOW-World-Wonder-Blu-ray/dp/B0045ASBLG/

    It's not a joke, but sometimes you'd think so. Believe it or not this is one of the highest-rated calibration DVDs you can buy. Calibration DVDs are cheap, but they are more intended for televisions, not computer monitors. You also have to do the calibration by eye, as the DVD is just giving you test patterns that you look at while you adjust your TV by hand, which can take some practice to get right.
  20. Ben Edwards

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    23
    Thanks, So if I get a blu-ray player for my computer I can play this through the Intensity Pro/U2410 and this is the best way to calibrate. Shame there is not a high quality video file I can buy;(.

    Also Just raised this in only available in Regan 1 and I am in the UK;(.

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