Home scanning negatives - proper cineon inversion?

This allow me to keep original scanned data in PLD file
I mean, I'm not familiar with all that, but it sounds to me like just a specific workflow/workaround in a specific app, which is totally fine if it works for you. What I meant is that the ICC profile is meant to describe real (CIE) colors, and so it stops having any meaning once you do the inversion, and after it, you need a new profile. It's a conceptual difference, not a technical one; you can make anything look like anything practically.

Also seems i was able to reproduce Filmeon's Density mode in PhotoLine by creating Linear to ACEScct 1D LUT
Filmeon's Density mode is just Cineon log scale; since both are logs, they would look similar, it's not magic. All logs look similar - the only difference is base/scale. Well, technically, ACEScct is a piecewise transfer, so not quite pure log; ACEScc is the pure log one. Not sure why you'd want it, though.
 
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Filmeon's Density mode is just Cineon log scale; since both are logs, they would look similar, it's not magic. All logs look similar - the only difference is base/scale. Well, technically, ACEScct is a piecewise transfer, so not quite pure log; ACEScc is the pure log one. Not sure why you'd want it, though.
Yes, i understand that all logs looks near same but from side by side compare i see that Histogram shape of Linear to Cineon Log LUT applied in Photoline looks different to Filmeon. That's why i tested and compare to other Log curves and ACEScct as well. Anyway, it could be just a visual difference between Histogram representation in different apps. Sure using Cineon Log for film Density is more logical than using ACEScct.
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visual difference between Histogram representation in different apps
Oh yeah, the Y scaling is done differently in different apps for sure. Hard to make the histogram look nice in all the different scenarios.

Btw, I've added the TIFF16 scene export option to the app.
 
It looks like a bug in exported TIFF. Something is missing in TRC transformation chain?. Image looks too dark compare to FIlmeon Density preview, when opened in image editor. But If i apply Gamma 1.0 to Cineon LUT, it start to look same as FIlmeon Density preview. Also there are visible low bit depth artifacts in Histogram.
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Image looks too dark compare to FIlmeon Density preview
One is linear, and the other is log; why are you comparing them? :) Raw scene-linear data will look quite dark by its nature due to the highlight headroom. What did you expect to see? Try putting a digital RAW file through MakeTiff, and you'll see exactly that.

But If i apply Gamma 1.0 to Cineon LUT, it start to look same as FIlmeon Density preview
Well, exactly :)
 
Hmm... That's really confusing. If image exported in Linear gamma and with embedded Linear ICC profile, isn't it should look correct (same as in browser Density preview) without any additional LUTs? Currently exported image looks like Cineon Log to g1.0 was applied 2 times by mistake. That "double transformation" also could be a source of banding in Histogram. Maybe you use some algorithm for DNG that expect additional transformation using metadata in Adobe apps, and this method simply don't works when DNG opened in non-Adobe apps or if exported to TIFF (which also can't use Adobe metadata)?
Also where from came Filmeon Scene Linear ICC profile? I see it was applied if ICC profile selected in export settings.
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Hmm... That's really confusing. If image exported in Linear gamma and with embedded Linear ICC profile, isn't it should look correct
It does look correct for what it is. Let me try to reduce the confusion :)

Internally, the scene is represented as a 0-Infinity floating point range (practically it's bound, of course); by convention, the values of a properly exposed scene land according to the diffuse reflectance scale, e.g., middle gray (18%) lands on 0.18, 90% white lands on 0.9, and so on. Everything above 1.0 is highlights/HDR (clouds, sun, specular reflections, emissive light sources, etc.). On export, you choose how much of the highlight headroom to preserve, e.g., the default "4 stops above white" means you sample the 0-16 float32 range, normalise it to 0-1, and quantize it to, e.g., 16-bit integer range. So 0.0 lands at code 0, 16.0 (max) at 65535, and scene white (1.0) at 4096.

ICC profile just declares that the encoding is linear and the color primaries are such and such. A color-managed viewer/editor will then apply the forward color matrix and the appropriate OETF (e.g., sRGB or gamma-based encoding) and send it to the display pipeline, which applies the inverse (EOTF) to derive the actual (linear again) brightness levels it needs its physical pixels to achieve.

So all this means that the relationship between different levels of brightness on your display (assuming it's properly calibrated) matches the one in the original scene, e.g., if a patch A is twice as bright as patch B in the scene, the image pixels representing patch A will have 2x values of patch B pixels and your display showing patch A will light twice as brightly as patch B. It says nothing about how bright they actually have to be in absolute terms, just that the relationship is preserved.

So if you're looking at the entire range from 0 to 16 as-is on an SDR display, it will have to look dark (because your brightest display pixels represent a value 16x brighter than the scene white).

That's sort of why we don't usually look at linear images on SDR display; they're meant to be tone-mapped before they look nice :)

same as in browser Density preview
Density preview shows, as the name suggests, density :) Which is logarithmic, not linear.

Maybe you use some algorithm for DNG that expect additional transformation using metadata in Adobe apps
Lightroom always shows you an already tone-mapped view, not raw values. Again, because why would you want to look at those directly? DNG has the metadata that tells Lightroom where the scene white actually is in the linear range, so the image looks well-exposed after tone-mapping.

source of banding in Histogram
That has nothing to do with the data. The sawtooth pattern you see is just a result of the math behind how histograms are made (uniformly spaced accumulation bins vs non-uniform input). Even if you take a perfect greyscale gradient, you'll still see the same pattern (and those simulated scans you're using aren't perfect gradients to start with). Here's a perfect gamma 2.2 greyscale ramp in Lightroom, for example.

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Well, my idea was to use Filmeon as intermediate tool and only use Base, Neutral A B eyedroppers and highlights/shadows. Then i expected that file will be exported in same linear gamma and same range as input, so i can do and do the rest in PhotoLine and keep it in PLD format. But seems it will not work like this. Maybe i'll try to experiment with it later.
In my workflow i use log-to-lin lin-to-log LUTs normalized to full range, so they don't require extended range, so guess i was thinking by mistake that Filmeon works somehow similar.
By the way, during this time i changed my PhotoLine workflow a little bit. In addition to main R/B gamma balance i made multiple Curves layers with masks for Blacks/Mids/Highlights, this allow to neutralize these areas with eyedroppers. It is still a little bit too complex because it all could be done using one single Curves layer if only Curves could have multiple auto gray eyedroppers.
Also this workflow don't require intermediate converting to Density (lin to log).
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@Denis Podlozny
I have to say I gave your Conversion Tool a try, and I am very impressed. It has more precision on the conversion than most of the tools I have seen on the market. And it seems to be very neutral in how it works with the file in the Cineon Process to get the most out of the Scan. I have not tried the Davinci Resolve version before, I have it installed now, but what I mostly used was your Web App.

The only thing I have honestly as a bit of an apprehension is that it is 100% Web Hosted, no Local Files. While I understand the Scans we edit is never sent anywhere outside our local storage, the fact the App itself depends on a host also means that someday it might be gone forever, for whatever reason, and we can never use it again, which makes me hesitant to get too confortable with it, and one day realize I have to start somewhere else from scratch. I hope you understand what I mean.

So I wanted to ask is if you have plans for a dedicated software in the future? I think it would be very well received by many!

Cheers
 
Thank you. The desktop version is definitely on the horizon, though I did not prioritize it. There are some challenges around properly utilizing the proper file system access that a desktop app provides vs. the limited/sandboxed access of the web app, plus there would have to be a migration path for moving the catalog from web to desktop.
 
Thank you. The desktop version is definitely on the horizon, though I did not prioritize it. There are some challenges around properly utilizing the proper file system access that a desktop app provides vs. the limited/sandboxed access of the web app, plus there would have to be a migration path for moving the catalog from web to desktop.
Just came to say that your web app is the most impressive col neg scanning tool I came across. Kudos on the color engine, approach (per-roll calibration with minimal per-shot adjustment) and very slick UI. I'd be more than happy to pay for a fully local and backup'able application - right now using a sanboxed chrome, but its not ideal. Keep up the good work!

PS. Would it be possible to incorporate RA4 paper tonal response, based on the published Kodak/Fuji charts, along with CMY filtration controls? I'd love to see an option that approximates a wet print as close as possible, without guesstimating toe and shoulder values.
 
Thank you!
Would it be possible to incorporate RA4 paper tonal response, based on the published Kodak/Fuji charts, along with CMY filtration controls? I'd love to see an option that approximates a wet print as close as possible, without guesstimating toe and shoulder values.
Yep, also in the plans. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of time to continue the work at the moment, but hopefully this will change soon :)
 
Two questions for Denis!

I am trying to adopt the Linear Scene as the beginning of my process of conversion. However I am getting into some issues.

1) If I go for DNG Linear Scene, when I try to open the file in Photoshop, I get the following error message: "Could not open xxx because the file-format module cannot parse the file". Anything I might be missing?

2) Regarding the 16Bit Linear Tiff option, which PS opens without issue. I am applying Filmeon Linear Scene Profile, to make sure it is correcty handled when I Convert to a Display Refered Profile. However, after opening, assigning Filmeon Linear Profile, then Converting to Adobe RGB Profile for Gamma, the image still looks way too dark, compared to the same file I have exported via Filmeon App using a Display Refered Gamma Profile? Why is that? Shouldnt these two match after the conversion is complete?

Thanks!
 
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